Twitter Trends to #1

wow..! I follow you guys on twitter & thru out the past 2 days saw some posts that had me saying.. huh?wha?! lol
As I'm writing here, I have the video from the other night going that you guys did which gave me the "aha THAT's what those posts were about!"
very cool & love the approach guys.. May the Lord keep directing your footsteps & protect you.. what an adventure..!! (meant in all sincerity, not in sarcasm)
God bless! :-)

Did either of you make it clear to Adam Lambert or to those you met at the stadium that homosexuality is a sin, but God loves sinners and wants them to be saved, and that homosexuals need to repent?

I think it is admirable that you guys stood amongst the hate and stood for God's Love. The way that the WBC goes about attempting to change people is just wrong. It takes time to change people. Patience and Love. I really wish people would see that.
Douglas, in the midst of the WBC protest, do you really think it would be appropriate to do anything other than say 'We love you, no matter your sin'? They are sinning, they know it, in their hearts, I am sure. But we should love them anyway, and pray for their salvation, and show them, with our actions, God's love, as words mean very little in this day and age.

Justin,

Yes, I do think it would have been appropriate, in the midst of the WBC protest, to do or say more than "We love you , no matter your sin". But pointing out that homosexuality is a sin needn't be "confrontational" or "condemnatory", any more than Jesus saying to the woman caught in adultery, "Go, and sin no more".

Douglas,

Why would you risk making yourself look like the WBC at the time of their protest? Many people would have thought anything other than 'We love you, no matter your sin", would be exactly the same thing as what the WBC was likely screaming. People do not react well to being told their lifestyles are completely wrong, even if they know it. If you do that, in a situation like that, they close off their minds to any sort of future chance of talking to them about their life, and trying to get them to change it.

What the WBC does is attempt to directly, and immediately change people from a path they have been on for a long time. Not to mention that their rhetoric is sickeningly twisted scripture taken out of context. This sort of approach does not work for the vast majority of people today, because the people they are trying to reach tend to pride themselves on being practical and logical. Attacking the emotional side of a logical person will do absolutely nothing. Course, lying just undermines their entire position anyway, but thats another debate.

I understand what you are saying, Douglas, and I wish they could have done something along those lines, but in that setting, any comments about the lifestyle would have sounded confrontational on like a condemnation, simply because of the false-testimony around them. In most cases, I would agree with you, in this particular instance, I do not. Showing God's unconditional love was a much better approach, and likely worked much better than what you are suggesting for an approach, for that scenario.

Justin

Justin,

I think a sign such as the following would have conveyed the message of God's love, as well as making it clear that God does not condone homosexuality:

"God loves you, but wants you to repent of the sin of homosexuality. We are all sinners, but need to repent - Jesus is willing to forgive us."

There are two dangers in such settings as at the American Idol Summer Concert in Kansas City: One, offending the sinner; two, confusing the sinner. I think the above message would avoid both dangers.

The message presented by Craig and Jason, on the other hand, could easily be appropriated by liberal Christians to promote the idea that God accepts homosexuals AND their homosexuality - and many modern "mainline" denominations do just that, misrepresenting God's Word by claiming that because God loves sinners, He does not condemn their sin. There are so-called "Christian" denominations that today are ordaining homosexuals, who are unrepentant of their homosexuality, as ministers.

Douglas,

While I understand why you might be concerned with that, I think the only thing that your missing, is the objective of what Craig and Jason were doing. They were trying to tell the people there that they did not agree with WBC, and that not all Christians were like that.

I think getting people curious and then explaining that type of thing in another venue is the best course of action. Instead of trying to do too much at the protest, initiating the thought of a difference, and making people curious about what you are saying, and your beliefs, and, in their looking into you more, they find information like that, presented in such a way as to be 'This is what we know to be true, but that won't change our love for you' is the way to go. Wordy protest signs get ignored, and serve no purpose.

I do agree that the message you want to get out, should get out, but it doesn't need to happen all at once.

Justin,

I don't think my proposed sign was either "wordy" or "protesting". Even if so, it could easily be split into TWO signs, being carried by two people.

The danger in what you suggest, and what was carried out, is that one doesn't know WHO will be "hearing" the message, and whether or not they will follow up to find out more. And others might have gotten the WRONG message, being confused.

For example, Adam Lambert himself, according to Craig himself, posted the following after the concert:

"“Thank you all for the support. Love overcomes hate. Love has no color. Love has no orientation. All is love. :)”

As Craig theorized, this very well could have been in response to Craig and Jason's "Jesus Loves" sign, and perhaps to what they signed in the book they donated to Adam:

"Adam, while some came to tell you of God’s hate, we came to defend you with God’s love. Love never fails. Love overcomes hate…Ask Danny and Chris (American Idol singers who are devout Christians), they’ll agree. Much hope, Jason and Craig”

To me, it sounds as though Adam has taken their "defending" him as their SUPPORTING him in his lifestyle, as though God approves of any "orientation". At the very least, the POTENTIAL for confusion is there, which is why I hold that simple clarification, AT THE TIME, regarding what is sin and what is not should be made.

If it had been me, I would have signed the book thus: "Adam, while some came to tell you of God’s hate, we came to tell you of God’s love. Love never fails. Love overcomes hate…. But love does not condone sin, and homosexuality is a sin. We are not here to condemn you, but to lovingly warn you to turn away from that which keeps you from God. Ask Danny and Chris (American Idol singers who are devout Christians), they’ll agree. Much hope, Douglas."

Douglas,
I see where you are coming from, but I do not agree that it was the appropriate forum. There are risks in the approach Craig and Jason took, there are also risks in the approach you want to take. There is potential for confusion in both approaches. I see how you would approach them as a subtle coercion, and I do not agree that any sort of coercion should be used in bringing people to God. People need to be seeking God, which many are. Talk to them about accepting God as savior first, let them ask questions, and once they are saved, work with them on their sins. We all have them, many who are saved still lapse into sexual sin. We need to work on those things, while being saved. The issue I have with your approach is this, it can all too easily be mistaken as he cannot be saved unless he is without sin.

Justin,

Was Jesus using "coercion" when He preached, starting at the very beginning of His ministry,

" ...'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.' " (Mark 1:15) ?

Douglas,

Was he directing his teaching to a specific group of people, or was he speaking to everyone as a whole? That is the difference. Targeting a specific group seems like coercion, where-as grouping them in with all sinners, without calling specific attention to them is not.

I disagree. In that view, it would be wrong to go to any particular group, however broad, and preach that they need to repent. Jonah would have been using "coercion" in going specifically to Nineveh and preaching repentance, for example.

And how would anyone know if what they were doing was a sin, unless someone told them? God has told us in His Word, and it is our responsibility, among other things, to preach the truth about sin and holiness, to let others know what endangers them and keeps them bound in spiritual death.

Tell me: Do you think Adam Lambert's "Twitter" comment as quoted by Craig indicates that Adam understands that Craig and Jason do not condone homosexuality, and that God does NOT approve of it? Do you think Adam's comment, "Love has no orientation. All is love", suggests Adam was convicted of his sin by the truth that Craig and Jason shared with him? Do you think it is perhaps MORE likely that Adam thinks God doesn't care what his orientation is, and that therefore he does NOT need to repent of his homosexuality?

Jonah was preaching a repentance of ALL sin in the city. He was not isolating specific instances of sin and calling them out, he was telling all of them, 'You are sinning, repent.' He was not making a list of there sins, but attempting to make them acknowledge that they are all sinners and must repent.

From birth we have a sense of what is right and what is wrong, consequences of Adam taking a bit of the fruit. We know, in our hearts, when we do something that is not right. We may deny that feeling, even to ourselves, but when we dig deep down, we know it to be false. We do not need someone else to tell us that.
What people do need, is for someone to attempt to help them bring that knowledge to the surface.

Whatever Adam thinks about the comment, he knows that there are Christians out here who love unconditionally. He may understand the true meaning behind it, he may not. If I were Craig and Jason, I would likely send him a message, however I could find a way, to at least talk to him about God a little more.

I know for certain that Adam knows, deep down, that his lifestyle is wrong. He may not want to believe it, he may think he must be this way, because it is a 'genetic condition' or a disease or whatever the current popular explanation is, but somewhere inside, he knows it is wrong.

I do agree that we are responsible to preach the Word of God to the masses, and to bring people to Christ; and that it is our responsibility to turn people from their sinful ways. But we are also warned against condemnation, and coercion and condemnation tend to go hand in hand.

Justin,

"Jonah was preaching a repentance of ALL sin in the city. He was not isolating specific instances of sin and calling them out, he was telling all of them, 'You are sinning, repent.' He was not making a list of there sins, but attempting to make them acknowledge that they are all sinners and must repent."

You missed the point I was trying to make. In the same way that a specific group of homosexuals might feel "targeted" or supposedly "coerced" if they were told to repent of their sins, so too might the Ninehvites have felt "targeted": "Hey, Jonah, why are you targeting us? Aren't there sinners in OTHER cities, too? Aren't all cities wicked in God's eyes? Stop trying to coerce us through condemnation."

I submit that EVERYONE, in their hearts, knows what is and is not sin. But the god of this world (Satan) has BLINDED their MINDS to the truth, and they are deceived. God's comment in this regard about Nineveh is illuminating, as He told Jonah that they couldn't discern their right from their left.

What Craig and Jason did merely helped Adam feel more comfortable in his sin, in my opinion. Well-meaning though they apparently were and are.

Justin,

"Jonah was preaching a repentance of ALL sin in the city. He was not isolating specific instances of sin and calling them out, he was telling all of them, 'You are sinning, repent.' He was not making a list of there sins, but attempting to make them acknowledge that they are all sinners and must repent."

You missed the point I was trying to make. In the same way that a specific group of homosexuals might feel "targeted" or supposedly "coerced" if they were told to repent of their sins, so too might the Ninehvites have felt "targeted": "Hey, Jonah, why are you targeting us? Aren't there sinners in OTHER cities, too? Aren't all cities wicked in God's eyes? Stop trying to coerce us through condemnation."

I submit that EVERYONE, in their hearts, knows what is and is not sin. But the god of this world (Satan) has BLINDED their MINDS to the truth, and they are deceived. God's comment in this regard about Nineveh is illuminating, as He told Jonah that they couldn't discern their right from their left.

What Craig and Jason did merely helped Adam feel more comfortable in his sin, in my opinion. Well-meaning though they apparently were and are.

Too bad they are all incorrect... talk about the sheep following in a herd... God is not capable of hatred. Not even to "hate hate". To think or even consider otherwise is blasphemous.

The Bible states that God "hates" divorce; and it makes clear (and I think states) that He "hates" other sins, as well. He can be angered, and is just and righteous, but His most identifying characteristic is love.

Love doesn't turn a blind eye to evil and injustice.

Douglas,
I think we got off point a bit, thank you for bringing us back to the point with the last paragraph of your comment.

Craig and Jason did not help Adam feel more comfortable in his sins, they pointed out that God is a god of Love, not hate, although, he is perfectly capable of hate. Denying him the capability of anything is denying his Sovereignty, which is blasphemous, Mike.

Deuteronomy 16:22
"and do not erect a sacred stone, for these the LORD your God hates"

Psalm 5:4-6
" 4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil;
with you the wicked cannot dwell.

5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence;
you hate all who do wrong.

6 You destroy those who tell lies;
bloodthirsty and deceitful men
the LORD abhors."
Zechariah 8:17
"do not plot evil against your neighbor, and do not love to swear falsely. I hate all this," declares the LORD."

Those are just a few examples from the Bible of God Hating something, so He does hate, He just does not hate us. He loves us and wants us to prosper, He loves sinners, of all kinds.

I think far too often we focus on the sin, instead of the sinner themselves, attempting to correct the sin, instead of trying to change the sinners heart from one of running from God to seeking God. If we do that, there is a much better chance of the sinner overcoming their sin and leading a more Christ-Like life than if we focus on the sin itself.

Justin,

"Craig and Jason did not help Adam feel more comfortable in his sins, they pointed out that God is a god of Love, not hate, although, he is perfectly capable of hate."

I believe they did. Here are the "messages" they "conveyed" to Adam:

- "Jesus Loves"

- "Adam, while some came to tell you of God’s hate, we came to defend you with God’s love. Love never fails. Love overcomes hate…Ask Danny and Chris (American Idol singers who are devout Christians), they’ll agree. Much hope, Jason and Craig".

Of course, perhaps in the BOOK they explained the fact that homosexuality is a sin, and that God therefore does not condone it, but it is quite likely that Adam won't ever actually read the book. Celebrities, and even semi-celebrities like Adam, often receive many books and the like, and don't have time to read them all.

Now, here is Adam's seeming "response" to Craig and Jason's "messages":

- "Thank you all for the support. Love overcomes hate. Love has no color. Love has no orientation. All is love. :)”

Does that sound to you like someone who thinks he and Craig and Jason are in agreement (assuming he was responding to their "messages")? To me, it does. Which would mean that their "messages" weren't clear enough, since the message of the Gospel is NOT that "[l]ove has no orientation", nor that "[a]ll is love".

Craig and Jason did not "speak the truth in love". They spoke in "love", and they spoke PART of the truth, but not the FULL truth which could convict and save sinners (in this case, homosexuals).

"Jesus loves" is an emasculated, impotent, message, one that practically ALL people who acknowledge Jesus as having existed could accept. Probably even Barney the Dinosaur.

At the least, the signs should have said, "Jesus loves, and He is willing to forgive sinners who repent." Without the latter portion, people trapped in sin like Adam - particularly those who are identified as "Christian" are "defending" - would get the idea that God accepts them as they are, LIFESTYLE INCLUDED.

Douglas,

Thank you for this debate, but before it becomes circular, I am going to end it by saying I do not agree. You have a very good opinion, and in some instances, I would agree with you, but not in this case, due to the messages of hate being spouted by the WBC, it was more important, and more appropriate, to say that God Loves Gays, to counter the God Hates Fags.

Beyond that, at that point, it didn't matter. You need to have people willing to listen to you in order to convince their mind they are sinning, coming right out, right from the start and talking just about their specific sins, does not work on everyone.

But this is my opinion, and I do know you do not agree. Shall we leave it as we agree to disagree, before the debate starts going in circles?

Justin.

Justin,

I think it already had, mostly. Although, you never did answer my questions, I don't think.

Douglas,

I apologize for that. Let me attempt to do so now.

"Does that sound to you like someone who thinks he and Craig and Jason are in agreement (assuming he was responding to their "messages")?"
No, I do not believe that it does, however, if he was indeed responding to their message (Which I too think he was) it means that they got through with their message of Love, and that he was grateful that not everyone out there hates gays. I feel that the message that 'We Love you, and so does God" was more important at the time than anything else, because of the messages around them. Maybe that will spark the heart of Adam to start seeking God, along which path, he will be opened to the fact that his lifestyle is a sin.

I went back through our debate and didn't see any others that I did not respond to. If I missed one, I will happily respond to it if you restate the question.

Justin

I think what Craig and Jason did was wonderful! I wholeheartedly support their actions and thank GOD He sent them to stand in the gap against such hatred. Just as WBC is being used by satan to chase people away from the welcoming arms of our Saviour, C & J's actions can be used to compel people toward our LORD.
I agree that the message needed to be Jesus Loves for that is the message of John 3:16. Its the message of the New Testament, which is a love letter from GOD.
People need to find GOD and they will not do that if they are belittled, angered, pushed away. Once they are attracted to the HOLY ONE, they by their very nature will see their own sins - not as mankind, or as society sees them -but as the Perfect Creator sees them. It is His job, not ours, to convict the hearts and minds of sinners. I only need to worry about my sin, not the sins of others. My job is to show the love of Him Who First Loved Me to those around me, (Mark 12: 28 - 31) thereby attracting them to HIM.
If C & J has stood on street corner and mentioned anything about one specific sin, who knows how many people would have walked by thinking "well that doesn't apply to me" or "they are only here for him" and not given the message another thought? Instead C& J's message and action has received massive attention through the media and through the blogs that followed AI. May GOD bless and grow the seeds that were planted with this effort, wherever they have taken root.

Pat,

If they were standing on a street corner in Greenwich Village where dozens of homosexuals passed by or congregated, then what? They were gathered where they were IN ORDER TO RESPOND to homosexuality - specifically, to (correctly) let homosexuals, and others, know that God's message is not one of hate.

But one can preach the truth WITHOUT it necessarily being "condemnatory" or judgmental or "hateful". What if at such a corner in Greenwich Village someone held up a sign that only said, "God loves you"? Would that be helpful, if such people believed in God but thought that homosexuality was approved by God? I don't think so - it seems to me that they would be encouraged in their deception, and be comforted in their sin.

MOST homosexuals THINK homosexuality is not a sin. How can they come to God if they aren't even aware that they have sin of which they need to repent?

"If they were standing on a street corner in Greenwich Village where dozens of homosexuals passed by or congregated, then what? They were gathered where they were IN ORDER TO RESPOND to homosexuality"

That is just not true. They were there to protest AGAINST THE WBC and their wrong rhetoric. Craig and Jason were not their to respond to the homosexuals, that just happened to be what the WBC was standing against at the time.

Their intention at the time was not to confront homosexuality, but the message of Hate that the WBC was preaching. The WBC was just directing the message towards homosexuals at the time.

Thank you guys for all you are doing to represent Christ in ways few are. Thanks for being an inspiration to a youth pastor in Arkansas.

I agree with what Douglas was saying. I think Craig and Jason could have made their position a little more clear by adding a few crucial words, yet at the same time they can still represent God's love. God is a God of love, but he is also a God of justice. The good news of the Gospel (salvation in Christ) must be presented with the bad news (we're sinners destined for hell). When Adam talked about love, he was using a different definition of love. Not God's definition, and I think Craig could've made that clear in his note; that he loves Adam with a love that he can only have from Christ. But at the same time, I realize that the main point was to counter act the hate from WBC and I think that Craig and Jason did a good job representing Christ. So amen to God being glorified in that day, and maybe He will use the book Craig gave Adam to convert him.